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#1 User is offline   ghostinthewood 

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 02:19 PM


This post has been edited by ghostinthewood: 02 December 2010 - 02:20 PM

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#2 User is offline   Mehphisto 

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 06:14 PM

Woah, that's pretty ridiculous.
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#3 User is offline   Down Range Pain 

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:20 PM

so...just radical right wing terrorists huh?
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#4 User is offline   Eskimo 

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:23 PM

.... oh my.

Really dont know what to say to that.
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#5 User is offline   Mehphisto 

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:35 PM

I read up on this a little after watching the video. Sovereign citizens are crazy, most of the things I read made no sense.
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#6 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:58 PM

@ 1:37-1:45

Yes, because it's the beliefs that killed them. Clearly, anyone who thinks the Federal government has overstepped its bounds must be a dangerous suspect. :rolleyes:

I find that statement morally equivalent to saying all Muslims are dangerous suspects, and that officers need to be aware of the "warning signs of Islamic beliefs."


@ the clip in general

Was there more to the clip somewhere else? Because, from a pure objective examination, I didn't find any "new tools" (or any "tools" for that matter) to help protect law enforcement in the video anywhere.



The moral of the story that I see from the incident is that you often get no warning when something won't be "routine." Be polite and professional, but also be ready to get off the X, draw your gun, and put the BG down at a moment's notice.

This post has been edited by Thalion: 02 December 2010 - 09:01 PM

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#7 User is offline   ghostinthewood 

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 10:22 PM

View PostThalion, on 02 December 2010 - 08:58 PM, said:

@ 1:37-1:45

Yes, because it's the beliefs that killed them. Clearly, anyone who thinks the Federal government has overstepped its bounds must be a dangerous suspect. :rolleyes:

I find that statement morally equivalent to saying all Muslims are dangerous suspects, and that officers need to be aware of the "warning signs of Islamic beliefs."


@ the clip in general

Was there more to the clip somewhere else? Because, from a pure objective examination, I didn't find any "new tools" (or any "tools" for that matter) to help protect law enforcement in the video anywhere.



The moral of the story that I see from the incident is that you often get no warning when something won't be "routine." Be polite and professional, but also be ready to get off the X, draw your gun, and put the BG down at a moment's notice.

In all fairness people want Islamic Extremist to be part of a terrorist profile. This isnt about pistol whipping suspicious people, its about deciphering different types of suspicious people and their trends. Sure the officers should've done some things differently, but had they known about this type of terrorist profile instead of the one people like to think of, things may have been different. They may have picked up on it better.

There is a longer version talking about the profile I'm referring to, but I figure it'd bore most people..

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#8 User is offline   evillepaintball 

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 06:09 AM

View PostThalion, on 02 December 2010 - 08:58 PM, said:

@ 1:37-1:45

Yes, because it's the beliefs that killed them. Clearly, anyone who thinks the Federal government has overstepped its bounds must be a dangerous suspect. :rolleyes:

I find that statement morally equivalent to saying all Muslims are dangerous suspects, and that officers need to be aware of the "warning signs of Islamic beliefs."


@ the clip in general

Was there more to the clip somewhere else? Because, from a pure objective examination, I didn't find any "new tools" (or any "tools" for that matter) to help protect law enforcement in the video anywhere.



The moral of the story that I see from the incident is that you often get no warning when something won't be "routine." Be polite and professional, but also be ready to get off the X, draw your gun, and put the BG down at a moment's notice.


@1:37 he is talking about people who believe the government has no authority, not too much authority. Those beliefs are what led them to take the actions they did. That statement is the equivalent to saying that radical Muslim beliefs can lead to those people committing acts of violence.
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#9 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 07:16 AM

View Postghostinthewood, on 02 December 2010 - 11:22 PM, said:

In all fairness people want Islamic Extremist to be part of a terrorist profile. This isnt about pistol whipping suspicious people, its about deciphering different types of suspicious people and their trends. Sure the officers should've done some things differently, but had they known about this type of terrorist profile instead of the one people like to think of, things may have been different. They may have picked up on it better.

There is a longer version talking about the profile I'm referring to, but I figure it'd bore most people..


Link doesn't work.

Including eville's quote too since this is a bit of a comment to both:

View Postevillepaintball, on 03 December 2010 - 07:09 AM, said:

@1:37 he is talking about people who believe the government has no authority, not too much authority. Those beliefs are what led them to take the actions they did. That statement is the equivalent to saying that radical Muslim beliefs can lead to those people committing acts of violence.


Though I'm just going to through out a thought on building the profile. This is an honest question -- what do you consider the traits that stand out as warnings of "extremists"? What do you define as trends of these "extremists"? How do you expect an officer in the field to pick up on it during a traffic stop?

Do you consider the same indicators as Homeland Security did? The big problem with that report (and to be fair, did end up with a "retraction" and a half-hearted kinda-sorta apology-that-wasn't) is that the indicators were way too broad and ended up classifying millions of Americans as "potential right wing extremists."

This isn't like saying "radical Muslims are potential terrorists." This is like saying "Muslims are potential terrorists."
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#10 User is offline   evillepaintball 

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:15 AM

I haven't studied the subject enough, nor do I have the training to make any kind of useful profile regarding sovereign citizens.

The only point I was trying to make is regarding your statement that this is the same as calling all Muslims terrorists. In the video at the time in question, he refers to them as "sovereigns." That the federal government is overstepping its bounds and should be smaller is a right-wing ideology. That ideology taken to the extreme is that the Federal government should not exist and has no authority over any citizens, which is what the "sovereigns" believe. In this context, sovereigns are to right-wingers as Muslim extremists are to Muslims. The speaker in the clip does not say that right-wingers are dangerous, but explicitly states that the extremist right-wing group, the sovereigns, are the ones to watch out for.
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#11 User is offline   ghostinthewood 

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:00 AM

View PostThalion, on 03 December 2010 - 07:16 AM, said:

View Postghostinthewood, on 02 December 2010 - 11:22 PM, said:

In all fairness people want Islamic Extremist to be part of a terrorist profile. This isnt about pistol whipping suspicious people, its about deciphering different types of suspicious people and their trends. Sure the officers should've done some things differently, but had they known about this type of terrorist profile instead of the one people like to think of, things may have been different. They may have picked up on it better.

There is a longer version talking about the profile I'm referring to, but I figure it'd bore most people..


Link doesn't work.

Including eville's quote too since this is a bit of a comment to both:

View Postevillepaintball, on 03 December 2010 - 07:09 AM, said:

@1:37 he is talking about people who believe the government has no authority, not too much authority. Those beliefs are what led them to take the actions they did. That statement is the equivalent to saying that radical Muslim beliefs can lead to those people committing acts of violence.


Though I'm just going to through out a thought on building the profile. This is an honest question -- what do you consider the traits that stand out as warnings of "extremists"? What do you define as trends of these "extremists"? How do you expect an officer in the field to pick up on it during a traffic stop?

Do you consider the same indicators as Homeland Security did? The big problem with that report (and to be fair, did end up with a "retraction" and a half-hearted kinda-sorta apology-that-wasn't) is that the indicators were way too broad and ended up classifying millions of Americans as "potential right wing extremists."

This isn't like saying "radical Muslims are potential terrorists." This is like saying "Muslims are potential terrorists."

I was using a JUNK netbook.



I would say those are very broad indicators(DHS).

I think eville and I are on the same page so I'm not going to restate what he said. lol
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#12 User is offline   PistolWhipped 

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:39 PM

Here's a case of jack-asses taking crap too far. As many times as not, these are just sociopaths looking for an excuse to murder, be they sovereign or jihadists or whatever the FRAG else.

Those cops weren't jack-booted thugs out to destroy liberty, they were average Joes trying to pay the bills and protect the peace.

Give me a shot at 'em and I'd cap those sovereign FRAGs my damn self. They want a shootout, I can give 'em one.
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#13 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:06 PM

View PostPistolWhipped, on 03 December 2010 - 01:39 PM, said:

Those cops weren't jack-booted thugs out to destroy liberty, they were average Joes trying to pay the bills and protect the peace.


Not sure who suggested anything else.

@ in general, not directed at anyone

Like I said before, the moral of this story is there are really messed up people out there, who will use any excuse they can to commit violence. Hope for the best, but be ready to shoot some sociopaths.


@ the Profiling/extremist bit

I get that i reacted quickly. My concern isn't for those scumbags (they killed two cops on a basic old stop? Let them rot), but rather the notion that can be put out from the video. I haven't seen the full longer one yet (I'm at work), but I will this evening to see if it provides something more. From the short clip, it sure sounded an awful lot like the others who talk about "rightwing extremists."
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#14 User is offline   ghostinthewood 

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 06:48 PM

View PostThalion, on 03 December 2010 - 01:06 PM, said:

View PostPistolWhipped, on 03 December 2010 - 01:39 PM, said:

Those cops weren't jack-booted thugs out to destroy liberty, they were average Joes trying to pay the bills and protect the peace.


Not sure who suggested anything else.

@ in general, not directed at anyone

Like I said before, the moral of this story is there are really messed up people out there, who will use any excuse they can to commit violence. Hope for the best, but be ready to shoot some sociopaths.


@ the Profiling/extremist bit

I get that i reacted quickly. My concern isn't for those scumbags (they killed two cops on a basic old stop? Let them rot), but rather the notion that can be put out from the video. I haven't seen the full longer one yet (I'm at work), but I will this evening to see if it provides something more. From the short clip, it sure sounded an awful lot like the others who talk about "rightwing extremists."

Most people who would stick up for these guys would also hate cops. Its part of the supporters-of-sovereigns profile. We know better than to stick you in that profile though. You share characteristics, but you're not the same. =]

The longer clip talks about the profile more, specifically fake papers and ID's of sorts and the codes within them indicating that the person may be a sovereign.
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#15 User is offline   Fenrisulfr 

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 06:50 PM

So let me get this straight... They're immune to federal laws and texes, yet they drive on the roads that we pay for and use money from a federal source to buy their things with?

Sounds more like a bunch of hypocritcal socialist anarchists.

This post has been edited by Fenrisulfr: 03 December 2010 - 06:52 PM

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