Special Ops Paintball: Automag RT tuning - Special Ops Paintball

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Automag RT tuning Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Komodo 

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Posted 27 June 2008 - 07:54 PM

Sorry if this has been covered recently but I'm not quite understanding the trigger system on my new ULE. First off, I got it today and aired it up, put the ammo in and started flinging paint. It worked very well until I may have short stroked the trigger and the air depressurized, leaving me with a limp trigger. How do I correct this if the trigger does this besides having to totally remove and reinsert the air system? This was just while I was shooting semi-auto. My other question is, can I sweet spot my RT and if so, how? Thanks?
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#2 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 12:20 PM

You're getting bolt stick. Read here to properly tune the marker:

http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index...showtopic=76736

You probably need to go up 1 carrier size. If it leaks, add shims.

This post has been edited by WardenWolf: 28 June 2008 - 12:21 PM


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#3 User is offline   questionful 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 01:25 PM

WardenWolf, on Jun 28 2008, 10:20 AM, said:

You're getting bolt stick. Read here to properly tune the marker:

http://www.automags....l10/index.shtml

You probably need to go up 1 carrier size. If it leaks, REMOVE shims.


When it does that, (bolt stick), you don't have to degas and regas the gun, just push on the front of the bolt with your finger or something.

To sweetspot your RT, you need a tank regulator that can put out like 900psi or higher.
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#4 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 01:54 PM

Sorry, but you're wrong. The shims sit on top of the carriers and cause the powertube tip to push the o-ring carrier down more, which causes the o-ring to expand horizontally as it's flattened. This reduces leaks. Yes, it also slightly tweaks the Level 10 timing, but in doing so it reduces leakage. Shims decrease the effective size of the carrier, NOT increase, which is physically impossible.

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#5 User is offline   questionful 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 01:59 PM

I've never heard of shims having that effect on the powertube O-ring. I don't even think the powertube O-ring is pressed upon at all. I will go measure my powertube internals and check. But the purpose of shims is mainly to adjust how close the powertube O-ring is to the leak-hole in the bolt stem. Adding shims makes it closer, and if it's too close, it won't seal in front of it and the leak-hole will leak. So adding shims is likely to cause a leak.

This post has been edited by questionful: 28 June 2008 - 01:59 PM

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#6 User is offline   Komodo 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 02:22 PM

Thanks for the quick replies guys! So what tank regulator would you guys reccomend for my setup? I'm using a Pure Energy 88 4500 tank. Also, Wardenwolf, for tuning my level 10, should I follow every step that you gave me in that order or what?
Thanks again.

Komodo
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#7 User is offline   questionful 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 02:34 PM

Komodo, on Jun 28 2008, 12:22 PM, said:

Thanks for the quick replies guys! So what tank regulator would you guys reccomend for my setup? I'm using a Pure Energy 88 4500 tank. Also, Wardenwolf, for tuning my level 10, should I follow every step that you gave me in that order or what?
Thanks again.

Komodo

I recommend a centerflag hyperflow. The Dynaflow perferably. But there are other options. I just ask that you don't get the maxflow in support of the SP boycott, but that's entirely up to you. It is a good regulator. Other options include an AGD flatline, an AA Armageddon, and non-adjustables that you can swap springs on (for example, a 1000psi spring and an 800psi spring, but you can't adjust in between).

For more on RT, definitely check out Zak Vetter's site.

http://www.zakvetter.com

For your level ten, I highly recommend you read the link I gave you, then you'll understand how the Level 10 works and you'll be able to diagnose and tune it yourself.

Though right now it just sounds like you need to swap the carrier for the next bigger one.
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#8 User is offline   Komodo 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 03:18 PM

Ok, thanks alot man. And yeah I don't condone SP and its business dealings so I'll look for something different. And I have one more question...oiling. I hear that most Mag owners "shoot oil through it." I assume this means that they dry fire oil through the gun. Where would I put the oil in order to do this? Thanks


Komodo

This post has been edited by Komodo: 28 June 2008 - 03:18 PM

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#9 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 03:20 PM

questionful, on Jun 28 2008, 02:34 PM, said:

Komodo, on Jun 28 2008, 12:22 PM, said:

Thanks for the quick replies guys! So what tank regulator would you guys reccomend for my setup? I'm using a Pure Energy 88 4500 tank. Also, Wardenwolf, for tuning my level 10, should I follow every step that you gave me in that order or what?
Thanks again.

Komodo

I recommend a centerflag hyperflow. The Dynaflow perferably. But there are other options. I just ask that you don't get the maxflow in support of the SP boycott, but that's entirely up to you. It is a good regulator. Other options include an AGD flatline, an AA Armageddon, and non-adjustables that you can swap springs on (for example, a 1000psi spring and an 800psi spring, but you can't adjust in between).

For more on RT, definitely check out Zak Vetter's site.

http://www.zakvetter.com

For your level ten, I highly recommend you read the link I gave you, then you'll understand how the Level 10 works and you'll be able to diagnose and tune it yourself.

Though right now it just sounds like you need to swap the carrier for the next bigger one.


Centerflag is out of business, and the Flatline is no longer sold or supported. Get up to date. You basically have 2 good fixed-reg choices for Automags: Crossfire and MacDev. Both give similar performance, around 900 PSI output. The MacDev is much lighter, but more expensive.

Komodo:

Since it already has a basic tune, just swap to the next larger carrier. If it leaks, add shims.

This post has been edited by WardenWolf: 28 June 2008 - 03:22 PM


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#10 User is offline   questionful 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 07:08 PM

WardenWolf, on Jun 28 2008, 01:20 PM, said:

questionful, on Jun 28 2008, 02:34 PM, said:

Komodo, on Jun 28 2008, 12:22 PM, said:

Thanks for the quick replies guys! So what tank regulator would you guys reccomend for my setup? I'm using a Pure Energy 88 4500 tank. Also, Wardenwolf, for tuning my level 10, should I follow every step that you gave me in that order or what?
Thanks again.

Komodo

I recommend a centerflag hyperflow. The Dynaflow perferably. But there are other options. I just ask that you don't get the maxflow in support of the SP boycott, but that's entirely up to you. It is a good regulator. Other options include an AGD flatline, an AA Armageddon, and non-adjustables that you can swap springs on (for example, a 1000psi spring and an 800psi spring, but you can't adjust in between).

For more on RT, definitely check out Zak Vetter's site.

http://www.zakvetter.com

For your level ten, I highly recommend you read the link I gave you, then you'll understand how the Level 10 works and you'll be able to diagnose and tune it yourself.

Though right now it just sounds like you need to swap the carrier for the next bigger one.


Centerflag is out of business, and the Flatline is no longer sold or supported. Get up to date. You basically have 2 good fixed-reg choices for Automags: Crossfire and MacDev. Both give similar performance, around 900 PSI output. The MacDev is much lighter, but more expensive.

Komodo:

Since it already has a basic tune, just swap to the next larger carrier. If it leaks, add shims.

Yeah, I know Centerflag is out of business. That doesn't matter. You can still buy and use their regulators. I have one myself. And it works just as well as it did when centerflag was still in business.
Same for the flatline. You can still get it, and it still works great. And what do you mean it's not supported? You can still buy parts for it, and I'm sure if you call AGD they'd help you out with any problems.

Fixed-output regs are not ideal for mags. A high-pressure preset, such as an 1150psi or a 1250psi, IS available, but no one wants to ONLY use super-high pressure, not only because of the RT but it will also wear your valve faster. So if you're going preset, you have to limit yourself to a pressure that you're willing to stay at indefinitely. Also, you can't adjust the reactivity easily (ULT shims is the only way), and last but not least you can't adapt your marker to your playing style. Take a look at these graphs:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.ph...amp;postcount=2

Komodo, to really tune your level 10 well, take ALL the shims out. Find the right carrier using the Level 10 guide:

http://www.automags....l10/index.shtml

Once you've got the right carrier, add shims one at a time until it leaks. Then remove one shim.
I highly recommend you read and re-read that guide until you understand it completely.

This post has been edited by questionful: 28 June 2008 - 07:11 PM

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#11 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 07:54 PM

Questionful, PLEASE quit giving him bad advice that is counterproductive. Stop. Just stop.

You can get the RT effect just fine at 900 PSI. I've done it. As long as you get a reg with a good recharge, it will work just fine. My MacDev has no problem with it.

You shouldn't buy a reg that has no support. It's just not safe. If there's a dangerous problem, there's no recall. If there's any problem, chances are you can't get parts for it. You want a reg that's still made and supported.

This post has been edited by WardenWolf: 28 June 2008 - 07:56 PM


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#12 User is offline   questionful 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 08:06 PM

WardenWolf, on Jun 28 2008, 05:54 PM, said:

Questionful, PLEASE quit giving him bad advice that is counterproductive. Stop. Just stop.

You can get the RT effect just fine at 900 PSI. I've done it. As long as you get a reg with a good recharge, it will work just fine. My MacDev has no problem with it.

You shouldn't buy a reg that has no support. It's just not safe. If there's a dangerous problem, there's no recall. If there's any problem, chances are you can't get parts for it. You want a reg that's still made and supported.


. . . So you think I'd give bad advice on purpose? I'm trying to help the guy just like you, I guess we disagree on some things. Be mature about it.

You probably can get RT with a preset at 900. But you won't be able to increase it or adjust it like you could with an adjustable tank. I personally prefer it higher than 900 for good RT, and that's why I have an adjustable. I also like being able to turn it down for when I want to conserve paint and maintain a consistent velocity when firing shots with several seconds between shots. It's up to komodo whether he himself prefers a preset or an adjustable, but he asked for our opinions and I gave him mine. I don't think I was being "counterproductive."

Flatlines and Centerflag regs are Perfectly safe. In the extremely improbable case of any problem with the flatline, AGD would take care of it. And Flatline parts are still on AGD's site. The centerflag parts kits are getting harder to find, but they can still be found and with care, they should last a LONG time. The poppet is made of kevlar. And the on/off O-rings are probably a standard size. They're just plain urethane O-rings.

Komodo, to shoot oil through a mag, just put a few drops in the ASA and fire it some (people say 20 shots) with the barrel off to keep it from getting oily.

This post has been edited by questionful: 28 June 2008 - 08:10 PM

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#13 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 08:29 PM

Using the method in my guide, I can install and tune a Level 10 from scratch in 30 minutes. No bolt stick, no leaks. He has a benefit, that it's already factory installed and basically working. It just needs some very fine tuning. Because of this, he does not need to go through all the steps from scratch. He just needs to step up 1 carrier size, or two if he continues to have problems.

To be honest, due to the way o-rings expand when compressed, the seal point does not really move back a significant amount when you add shims. Far less so than the o-ring expands horizontally. This is because there is a lot of surface area being compressed. So a tiny bit of compression on the flat face of the o-ring means a more significant difference in the diameter. If you're getting bolt stick, it's far more effective to go up a carrier size and shim it if necessary than to try adding shims to your existing carrier to just alter the seal point. The latter method just treats the symptom, not the true problem.

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#14 User is offline   questionful 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 08:40 PM

I'm no expert on O-ring physics, but I'm pretty sure shims don't affect the Inner Diameter of the powertube O-ring. I've never read anything of the sort on AO or on any other AGD-related site.

I don't think the powertube O-ring is being squeezed againts the backing washer or the back of the powertube. I still haven't measured my powertube internals, but I'm sure there's room in there so there's a space behind the carrier. As I understand, the carrier is pushed forward by pressure in the dump changer (hence the O-ring on the outside of the carrier and that little tiny hole), and the shims just adjust its position. I may be wrong, but I will investigate and post my results.
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#15 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 08:48 PM

The o-ring is squeezed between the carrier and the white washer by the powertube tip. I actually have a feedneck that works on this same principle. There's a large rubber o-ring in between the twist top and the edge of the neck. When you screw the neck down, it exerts pressure on the top and bottoms of the o-ring, causing it to expand inwards. This works EXACTLY like the carrier and washer in a Level 10. The function is entirely the same. The outer diameter of the o-ring is fixed by the carrier. It cannot expand outwards. So when compressed along the flat side, it expands INWARDS. The shims add this vertical compression, resulting in horizontal expansion.

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